St. Louis, Missouri was the epicenter of the Black Lives Matter movement in the summer of 2014. Now, Kim Gardner – the city’s first African American chief prosecutor – is investigating police violence. She joins Michel to explain why she filed a lawsuit accusing the city of St. Louis and its police union of a “racially motivated conspiracy to deny the civil rights of racial minorities.”
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> WE TURN NOW TO POLICE VIOLENCE IN ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI.
THE CITY WAS AT THE EPICENTER BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT IN THE SUMMER OF 2014 AFTER THE FATAL SHOOTING OF THE 18-YEAR-OLD MICHAEL BROWN IN FERGUSON.
NOW KIM GARDNER, THE CITY’S FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN CHIEF PROSECUTOR, IS INVESTIGATING POLICE VIOLENCE THERE.
SHE’S FILED A LAWSUIT AGAINST THE POLICE UNION AND THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS, ACCUSING THEM OF, QUOTE, ISRAELRACIALLY MOTIVATED.
KIM GARDNER SAT DOWN WITH MICHELLE MARTIN TO EXPLAIN WHY SHE’S DOING THE LAWSUIT AND WHY IT’S SO IMPORTANT.
KIM GARDNER, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
YOU DECIDED TO RUN AS A THE TOP PROSECUTOR.
I KNOW THAT YOU CALL FOR MORE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR POLICE OFFICERS WHO HAVE BEEN VIOLENT WHO HAVE USED EXCESSIVE FORCE.
YOU CALLED FOR NOT PROSECUTING LOWER LEVEL DRUG OFFENSES.
TALK ABOUT WHAT DID YOU DETERMINE AS YOUR PLATFORM IN RUNNING FOR THIS JOB?
MY PLATFORM IS TO LOOK AT CRIME AS A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS.
WE HAVE TO BE ABOUT HARM REDUCTION AND PUBLIC SAFETY.
THAT’S A PROSECUTOR WHO IS A MINISTER OF JUSTICE.
TO PURSUE JUSTICE IS NOT MERELY CON VEHICLE.
IT’S PREVENTING CRIME AND PREVENTING INDIVIDUALS FURTHER INTO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.
THAT’S MY PLAN FORM.
TO ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSES OF HOPELESSNESS.
WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THE ECONOMIC DISPARITIES.
THAT DRIVERS INDIVIDUALS TO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.
THAT’S WHY WE LOOK AT ALTERNATIVES TO GIVE PEOPLE OPPORTUNITIES TO GET THEMSELVES OUT OF THE CRIME CONTINUUM THAT CAUSES MASS INCARCERATION, WHICH WE KNOW HAS CAUSED DEVASTATION AND DESTRUCTION TO OUR COMMUNITIES.
THAT’S WHY HOLDING POLICE ACCOUNTABLE.
HOW WE BUILD TRUSTING WITH INDIVIDUALS IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM OR HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE IS YOU HAVE TO BUILD TRUST WITH THE COMMUNITY.
WHEN DID THE RESISTANCE TO YOUR POLICIES START?
DAY ONE WHEN I WALKED INTO THE OFFICE.
HOW DID YOU SEE THAT?
HOW WAS IT EXPRESSED TO YOU?
BEFORE TAKING OFFICE, IT WAS EXPRESSED BY CONVERSATIONS WITH THE POLICE UNION WHO BASICALLY SAID THAT POLICE WILL NO LONGER DO THEIR JOB BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID OF THE MESSAGE OF HOW WE HAVE TO ADDRESS ACCOUNTABILITY FOR OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.
IT WAS EXPRESSED BY INDIVIDUALS RESISTANCE TO, ONE, DISQUALIFYING MY OFFICE FROM CERTAIN CASES BECAUSE OF CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS WHO DID NOT LIKE THE WAY WE WERE IMPLEMENTING REFORMS IN THE OFFICE.
IT WAS LOOKING AT HOW WE BROUGHT IN NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS TO ADDRESS THE PRETRIAL AND BAIL CRISIS IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
HOW WE REVIEW CASES.
HOW WE LOOKED AT OUR DATA AND HOW WE WERE REALLY LOOKING AT WHO WE CHARGE, HOW WE CHARGE, HOW 100 GRAMS OR LESS NOT BRINGING LOW LEVEL MARIJUANA CASES AND PROSECUTING THAT CAUSES MORE MASS INCARCERATION SO WE CAN FOCUS ON VIOLENT AND SERIOUS CRIME.
WE TRY MORE CASES THAN ANY OTHER JURISDICTION.
THAT WAS A BIG IMPEDIMENT THAT POLICE STARTED PUTTING OUT THERE THAT SOMEHOW WE ARE LETTING DRUG DEALERS AND VIOLENT INDIVIDUALS PREY ON THE COMMUNITY.
IT’S MISINFORMATION THAT WHEN I TOOK OFFICE THAT WAS PUT OUT THERE THAT SOMEHOW I DON’T KNOW HOW DO MY JOB.
DID ANYONE SAY THIS TO YOU DIRECTLY?
HOW DID THIS COMMUNICATION WITH OTHER FOLKS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT TAKE PLACE?
DID ANYBODY FROM THE POLICE UNION — DID YOU MEET WITH THEM?
DID YOU MEET WITH THE COMMAND OFFICERS AND SAY, THIS IS THE NEW APPROACH THAT WE’RE TAKING AND THIS IS WHY IT’S IN OUR BEST INTEREST?
DID ANYBODY SAY TO YOU THAT WE DON’T AGREE WITH YOU AND WE’RE NOT GOING TO IT?
WAS IT COMMUNICATED IN OTHER WAYS.
IT WAS COMMUNICATED BY THE REPRESENTATIVES THAT THE POLICE FELT LIKE THEY CANNOT TRUST ME AS THE NEW PROSECUTOR, BECAUSE THEY FELT LIKE THAT I’M NOT GOING TO GO AFTER INDIVIDUALS THAT PREY ON THE COMMUNITY.
I’M JUST GOING AFTER POLICE.
THAT WAS SHORTLY AFTER THE STOCKILY CASE.
IT WAS — WHEN I TOOK OFFICE, WE INHERITED THE STOCKILY CASE.
WE PURSUED THAT TO TRIAL.
AT THAT POINT, THERE WAS MANY DIFFERENT OFFICERS WHO FAILED TO TURN OVER CERTAIN INFORMATION WHO STARTED TO NOT WANT TO BRING CASES, MAKING IT DIFFICULT TO DO THEIR JOB BECAUSE THEY FELT PER THE POLICE UNION THAT SOMEHOW I WAS GOING TO PROSECUTE POLICE MORE THAN PROSECUTE INDIVIDUALS THAT COMMIT CRIMES.
COULD YOU JUST REMIND US WHAT THE STOCKILY CASE IS?
JASON STOCKILY WAS A POLICE OFFICER THAT SHOT AND KILLED ANTHONY LAMAR SMITH.
WE HAD A BENCH TRIAL WHICH ULTIMATELY KICKED OFF MORE PROTESTS ABOUT THE WAY IT WAS HANDLED BECAUSE ANTHONY SMITH WAS KILLED BY A GUN THAT THE ONLY DNA ON THE GUN WAS OFFICER JASON STOCKILY’S DNA.
WOULD IT BE ACCURATE TO SAY YOU FEEL YOU WALKED INTO A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT?
WOULD THAT BE ACCURATE?
I FEEL I WALKED INTO A H HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT.
BECAUSE OF THE REFORM EFFORTS AND THE MESSAGE OF HOLDING EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE UNDER THE LAWS OF THE STATE OF MISSOURI, I FELT LIKE SOMEHOW IT WAS AN ATTACK ON THEM AGAINST US.
US IS THE PEOPLE VERSUS SOME LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS, NOT ALL.
I BELIEVE THAT MESSAGE WAS BASICALLY TALKED ABOUT AND PUT OUT THERE BY THE POLICE UNION.
THE HEAD OF THE POLICE UNION, BUSINESS MANAGER.
LET’S TALK ABOUT THE LAWSUIT.
IT’S HIGHLY UNUSUAL.
SOME CONSIDER IT TO BE — SOME THINK IT MAY BE THE FIRST TIME AN ELECTED OFFICIAL USED THE STATUTE, DESIGNED TO ADDRESS THE KU KLUX KLAN, AND IN SOME CASES THE COLLABORATION AND THE INFILTRATION OF THEENFORCEMENT.
TELL US ABOUT IT.
HOW DID YOU DECIDE THIS WAS THE COURSE OF ACTION YOU NEEDED TO TAKE?
IT’S NOT ABOUT ME.
IT’S ABOUT THE PEOPLE.
IT’S ABOUT STOPPING REFORMS THAT THE PEOPLE ELECTED ME AS THE PROSECUTOR OF THE CITY OF ST.
LOUIS TO DO.
THIS IS THE POWERFUL FEW THAT HAVE COORDINATED AND INCLUDED TOGETHER TO STOP THESE EFFORTS.
THIS IS ABOUT THE PER PETPETUAT OF THE A SYSTEM THAT CAUSED HARM.
WE THAD TO TAKE THE MEASURES OF STANDING UP AND DOING WHAT’S RIGHT.
WE HAD TO MAKE INDIVIDUALS UNCOMFORTABLE THAT THEY CANNOT USURP THE POWER OF THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.
WHY A LAWSUIT?
SOME MIGHT ARGUE THAT THIS IS A MATTER OF POLITICAL SKILL.
YOUR FAILURE TO GET BUY-IN, YOU WOULD KNOW THEY ARE ENTRENCHED, THEY HAVE A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW AND THAT THAT’S WHAT YOU WERE ELECT DODDED TO DO.
WHY A LAWSUIT?
THIS IS ABOUT EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER THE LAWS IN THE SIT OF IT ST. LOUIS.
THIS IS ABOUT THE PEOPLE AND THEIR POWER AND THEIR VOICE BEING SILENCED BY THE POWERFUL FEW.
THE BEST COURSE OF THE ACTION IS TO SEEK THE LAWS OF THE FEDERAL COURTS.
THAT’S HOW WE HAVE HISTORY OF EQUALITY IN THIS COUNTRY IS TO SEEK THAT EQUALITY THROUGH THE COURTS.
EVERYONE DESERVES EQUALITY UNDER THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY AS WELL AS THE STATE OF MISSOURI.
IT’S ABOUT EQUALITY.
IT’S NO ONE IN THE CITY OF ST.
LOUIS THAT WILL NOT TELL BUT RA RACIAL DIVISIVENESS.
THE ETHICAL SOCIETY OF POLICE TALKED ABOUT THAT THIS SUIT IS NEEDED AND THE CLAIMS IN THERE ARE SUBSTANTIATED.
THE BLACK POLICE UNION FORMED FOR RACIAL EQUALITY ON THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT EVERYONE IN ST. LOUIS.
THIS IS ABOUT THE POWERFUL FEW THAT HAVE COLLUDED TO THWART THE EFFORTS OF THE PEOPLE.
YOU CALLED IT A RACIST CONSPIRACY TO THWART THE REFORMS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN ELECTED TO ADVANCE.
THE BUSINESS MANAGER FOR THE ST.
LOUIS POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION, HE IS NAMED — HE IS A NAMED PARTY IN YOUR SUIT.
HE DENIES THIS IS ABOUT RACISM.
HE SAID, WE’RE NOT CRITICIZING HER BECAUSE SHE’S THE FIRST.
WE’RE CRITICIZING HER BECAUSE SHE’S THE WORST.
THE WORST PROSECUTOR IN THE UNITED STATES.
THEN HE GOES ON TO SAY THAT THE WALLS ARE CLOSING IN ON THIS CORRUPT OFFICIAL AND SHE’S DOING WHAT EVERY CORRUPT OFFICIAL DOES.
SHE’S PUSHING BACK.
I’M EDITING.
HE SAYS THIS IS THE LAST ACT OF A DESPERATE WOMAN WHO WANTS TO SILENCE HER CRITICS.
YOUR RESPONSE IS?
MY RESPONSE IS JEFF SHOULD NOT HAVE A PLATFORM TO SPEW HIS RACIAL DIVISIVENESS.
HE IS A FIRED POLICE OFFICER THAT WAS FIRED FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT WHICH HE CAME FROM FOR MAKING A FALSE POLICE REPORT.
WHY WOULD WE GIVE THIS INDIVIDUAL A PLATFORM TO TALK ABOUT ANYTHING OF CREDIBILITY?
HE HAS NONE.
THIS IS AN INDIVIDUAL —
HE IS NAMED IN YOUR SUIT.
HE REPRESENTS THE — SOME MEN AND WOMEN IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
THAT’S WHY HE IS NAMED IN THE SUIT.
HE IS ALLOWED UNCHECKED TO SAY RACIALLY DIVISIVE RHETORIC THAT EVEN WHEN FORMER AND OTHER BLACK PROSECUTORS, WOMEN, CAME DOWN TO SUPPORT MYSELF, HE TOLD US TO GO BACK TO WHERE WE COME FROM.
THAT RHETORIC IS NOT ALLOWED.
THAT’S IN LINE WITH THIS KIND OF RHETORIC OF RACIAL DIVISIVENESS THAT FUELS THE RACIAL DIVIDE IN THIS CITY.
THE CITY IS NAMED IN THE LAWSUIT.
IS THAT CORRECT?
WHY IS THAT?
WHY IS THAT?
THE CITY HAS, WITH A SMALL FEW, WORKED TO IMPEDE LEGAL REPRESENTATION FOR MY OFFICE IN TERMS OF A SPECIAL INVESTIGATION THAT WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THAT IS MORE ABOUT THE PEOPLE AND STOPPING LEGAL REPRESENTATION THAT EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION INSIDE MY OFFICE AS WELL AS THE ELECTED PROSECUTOR DOING THEIR JOB DAY TO DAY.
THAT IS WHY THE CITY IS INVOLVED.
THERE IS INSTANCES WHERE CITY IS A PART OF BRINGING CERTAIN CLAIMS TO START OFF A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR INVESTIGATION WHICH WE HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT.
THOSE ARE FACTS OF THE CASE THAT ARE AT ISSUE.
THAT’S FOR THE LAWSUIT TO DECIDE.
OF COURSE, YOU KNOW THAT THE MAYOR — A SPOKESPERSON FOR THE MA MAYOR, QUOTE UNQUOTE, DENIED WHAT IT CONSIDERS TO BE MERITLESS ALLEGATIONS LEVIED AGAINST IT AND EXPECTED TO BE FULLY VINDICATED.
I’M SURE YOU ARE AWARE OF THAT.
I GUESS THE QUESTION I HAVE IS THAT YOU WERE ELECTED BY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ELECTED THESE OFFICIALS.
I’M JUST — I’M WONDERING HOW IT IS THAT YOU —
THE MAY OR IS ELECTED.
CITY COUNSELOR IS APPOINTED BY THE MAYOR.
THE PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR IS APPOINTED BY E EED BY THE MAYO.
THEY ARE IN THE MAYOR’S CABINET.
LET’S GO BACK TO WHAT SHE SAID.
IT WAS REALLY A FRIVOLOUS — IT WAS A FRIVOLOUS STATEMENT BY HER SPOKESPERSON.
IT WAS CHARACTERIZED AS MERITLESS.
I WOULD SAY THAT I DON’T BELIEVE THE ETHICAL SOCIETY OF POLICE DEPARTMENT WHO SUPPORTS THIS LAWSUIT, WHO SAYS THAT THERE ARE RACIAL DIVISIVENESS WITHIN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, IT’S NOT FRIVOLOUS.
I THINK THE MAYOR NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND AND KNOW ABOUT THE RACIAL DIVIDE IN THE CITY OF ST.
LOUIS.
YOU ARE PART OF A GROUP OF REFORM-MINED PROSECUTORS ELECTED IN RECENT YEARS.
I WAS WONDERING WHY IT IS THAT IT WAS A GROUP OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN PROSECUTORS WHO CAME TO SUPPORT YOU BUT THERE ARE MEN WHO SHARE YOUR VIEWS ABOUT THE BEST WAY TO APPROACH CRIME, AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN, WHITE MEN WHO SHARE THESE VIEWS.
I WAS CURIOUS WHY WERE THEY NOT AMONG THE PEOPLE WHO CAME TO SUPPORT YOU AS THIS LAWSUIT WAS FILED AND AS YOU HAVE BEEN UNDER ATTACK?
DOE YOU ARE REINFORCING THE IDEA IT’S ABOUT IDENTITY AND NOT ABOUT THE IDEA.
IT’S REALLY THE SISTERHOOD WE HAVE FOR BEING THE FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE PROSECUTORS IN OUR RESPECTIVE JURISDICTIONS.
IT’S A SISTERHOOD.
WE ARE UNDER ATTACK DIFFERENT FROM EVEN OUR OTHER COLLEAGUES THAT ARE IN THE REFORM MOVEMENT.
WE’RE NOT SAYING THEY ARE NOT UNDER ATTACK.
THE ATTACKS ARE DIFFERENT TO AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE PROSECUTORS.
THESE WOMEN UNDERSTAND THE CHALLENGES OF THE INTERSECTION OF RACE AND GENDER.
WHEN YOU ARE AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN FEMALE PROSECUTOR, YOUR DISCRETION HOW YOU LOOK AT DOING YOUR JOB IS CHALLENGED AT EVERY COST.
WHERE THE WAY YOU ARE CHARACTERIZED AND THE WAY YOUR FACE IS PUT ON DIFFERENT CARICATURES IS DIFFERENT THAN OUR MALE COUNTERPARTS.
THAT’S WHY THEY CAME TO SUPPORT ME.
THE ATTACKS ARE REAL.
WE ARE DEMONIZED.
WE TODAY — I GOT A LETTER, PEOPLE ASK ME WHY I’M DOING THIS.
I GOT A LETTER WHICH BASICALLY — I WILL READ THIS.
WE ARE GOING TO GET YOU OUT OF THERE.
ONE OF THE OTHER — AND THE OTHER.
YOU ARE A LOW LIFE CROOKED LYING NB, STOP WASTING OUR TAXPAYERS YOU [ BLEEP ], YOU CAN’T DO YOUR JOB RIGHT.
NOTHING BUT A BLACK SLUT.
YOU GOT THAT TODAY?
GOT THAT TODAY.
THESE ARE WHY THEY CAME DOWN.
THEY GET THE HATE MAIL LIKE THIS.
THEY GET THE THREATS ON THEIR FAMILY.
THEY GET THE CHILDREN DISSEMINATED TO THE PUBLIC SO PEOPLE KNOW WHERE THEIR CHILDREN ARE GOING TO SCHOOL.
THEY GET THE DEATH THREATS.
THEY GET THE STOPS BY POLICE.
THEY ARE STOPPED FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME.
IT IS THIS VITRIOL THAT NO ONE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT.
IT’S DIFFERENT FROM OUR MALE COUNTERPARTS.
WE’RE NOT SAYING THEY DON’T GET ATTACKS.
IT’S NOT THE SAME WAY.
ALL THE THINGS YOU HAVE TALKING ABOUT HAVE SUCH DEEP HISTORICAL ROOTS.
RIGHT?
YES, IT DOES.
DO YOU FEEL THAT EVEN IF YOU PREVAIL IN THIS LAWSUIT, THAT THAT ACTUALLY ACHIEVES THE CULTURAL CHANGE THAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR?
THE BEST DISINFECTANT IS LIGHT.
WE HAVE TO SHOW LIGHT ON THE RACIAL INJUSTICE THAT’S BEEN PERPETUATED BY THE SMALL FEW.
THIS IS ABOUT THE PEOPLE.
WE STARTED THIS POST-FERGUSON.
WE ARE THE ONES THAT STARTED THE CONVERSATION OF REFORMING A BROKEN CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, SHOWING THE RACIAL DIVIDE, SHOWING THE INEQUITIES OF HOW WHEN YOU HAVE INDIVIDUALS THAT PERPETUATE DIVISION IN THE COMMUNITIES, WHAT THAT DOES.
WE ARE THE GROUND ZERO FOR THE REFORM EFFORTS.
IT’S SAD THAT THESE REFORM EFFORTS ARE HAMPERED IN THIS REGION.
WHAT’S MORE DISTURBING IS THERE’S SILENCE TAKING PLACE IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.
THERE’S SILENCE IN THE LEGAL COMMUNITY THAT KNOWS THE INJUSTICE.
IT’S SILENCE INSIDE THE POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT WANT CHANGE BUT ARE AFRAID OF THE FEW WHO CONTINUE TO SILENCE AND TO IMPEDE AND TO DISCOUNT.
THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
THEY ARE USING ME AS AN EXAMPLE, IF YOU GO AGAINST THE STATUS QUO, THIS IS A MODERN DAY NIGHT RIDE.
WE KNOW OUR HISTORY.
IF YOU SAY THEY DON’T REALLY REPRESENT THE MAJORITY OF THE DEPARTMENT, IF THEY DON’T REALLY REPRESENT THE CENTER OF THE GRAVITY OF THIS POLICE DEPARTMENT, WHY DON’T THEY VOTE THESE PEOPLE OUT OF OFFICE?
IF THAT’S THE CASE.
WE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT A SMALL FEW.
WE TALK ABOUT A SMALL FEW WHO CAUSE THE CRIME IN OUR CITY.
WE CHARACTERIZE OUR CITY BY A SMALL FEW.
LIKE A SMALL FEW ARE CAUSING A PROBLEM IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
THOSE SMALL FEW CAN AFFECT THE WHOLE BUNCH IF WE DON’T CONTINUE TO ERADICATE THE INJUSTICE AND RACIAL DIVISIVENESS THAT WE KNOW AND THE ETHICAL SOCIETY OF POLICE HAVE AGREED HAS TAKEN PLACE IN THE ST. LOUIS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT.
IF WE DON’T CONTINUE TO HAVE THE GOOD PEOPLE STAND UP AND FIGHT, WE’RE GOING TO HAVE THE SMALL FEW TO IMPEDE PROGRESS, THE STAGNATION OF THE PEOPLE WANTING TO COME TO ST. LOUIS, TO LIVE, WORK AND PLAY IN THE COMMUNITY I KNOW IS GREAT, THAT HAS GREAT PEOPLE, GREAT ENTITIES HERE.
WE HAVE GREAT OPPORTUNITIES.
WE’RE GOING TO FAIL IF WE DO NOT BECOME MORE INCLUSIVE AND WE DON’T SAY, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
WE DON’T — WE SEE INJUSTICE.
WE HAVE TO STAND UP.
IF YOU HAVE TO STAND UP FOR THE PEOPLE, I WILL.
THE PEOPLE ASKED ME TO FIGHT.
THEY DPNTIDN’T ASK ME TO STANDSTILL.
THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.
I APPRECIATE YOU.